Jon's Digital Dreams

As a passionate advocate for technology design, home entertainment and elegant, functional experiences, I dream of a world where solutions like Windows Media Center can effortlessly collect, manage and display the things I want, when I want them, and how I want them. My digital dream is enabling technology to work for me, as a partner in helping me enjoy and be productive in my life. The focus point of this blog will be Windows Media Center, but I might tangent off from time-to-time to make broader points around elegant enabling technologies. Whenever something inspires or irks me enough to step up and share, you'll see them right here in Jon's Digital Dreams.

Windows Media Center - TV on your PC, PC on your TV, or something else entirely?

 [This segment is a cross-post from my blog on The Digital Lifestyle.  The near-term goal is to sync them up.]

Chris Lanier has made quite a buzz around Microsoft's positioning of Windows Media Center (WMC) of late.  The "TV on your PC" positioning does seem like an arrow through the heart for many of us "10 footers" (those of us who watch WMC -- exclusively in full screen mode -- on a traditional TV using a remote control) who really see the value of WMC as a home media hub for our entire homes, including our TV/family rooms -- via the "10 foot interface."   For 10-footers, the very notion of watching TV on a PC seems antithetical to the 10-foot interface.   What the "10 footers" really want is to replicate the set-top box (STB) experience, but with all the power and awesomeness of the Windows Media Center platform.  

Which brings us to "PC on your TV."  From Microsoft's perspective, that's what many of us "10 footers" are doing today... plugging in a PC into an HDTV and displaying a software application on our TVs.  Of course, this really isn't at all what we're meaning to do (what we're meaning to do is to simulate and improve upon a traditional TiVo/STB experience), but literally, that is what we're doing.  

Then there are the "client/server" folks, who have an "office PC" that acts as the WMC server, and deploy extenders (clients) throughout their home as WMC STBs.   This, I surmise, was the primary use case that Microsoft had in mind when originally architecting the WMC experience.   When looking at extender sales, it's probably easy for Microsoft to conclude that this approach was not setting the world on fire.  (Of course, the strategy might have worked, but there were a lot of mistakes made in the execution that I'm sure will come up in future posts)

So, if you rudimentarily look at these three approaches, and you're Microsoft management looking for a relevant market position today, it's understandable that Microsoft would choose "TV on your PC," because it's undeniable that most people do not really want a PC in their family rooms (i.e., "PC on your TV"), and we already know that extenders (i.e., client/server) were serving a niche audience.   As it stands right now, the only mass-market appeal for WMC is "TV on your PC" because everyone uses their PC as a PC, and only we, the 10-footer's, use our PCs on our TVs. 

So, why does this matter?  Because this could either be a directional position (something that Chris has been publicly fretting about), or a tactical positioning that satisfies the more immediate needs of an organization to define a market and serve that market now, with what is available now.

So, could all the hubbub around "TV on your PC" simply be the marketing equivalent of Windows Mobile 6.5 -- an interim fix to keep something relevant and interesting while they invest in a more hopeful future?   I suspect it is.  And this is where the speculation game becomes either fun or frantic. 

Media Center is at a cross-roads.   It's the most robust, mature, and elegant media management system on the market that has native support for Digital Cable.   The forthcoming Win7 version is garnering good reviews online (here, here, and here for starters).  Yet, it's not all that ready for the digitally-connected age of streaming video, including seamless access to YouTube, Hulu and other huge online media broadcast firms.   It doesn't have built-in PodCast or VlogCast management or playback tools.  It's not delivered in a form-factor that is family-friendly, it has no "app store" where 3rd parties can monetize their innovations, the extender strategy is in flux, and, ultimately, it appears to be lacking a mission.   Oh, I could go on, but I gotta leave some reason for future posts!

The $10,000 question is: What is Microsoft's Digital Dream for managing and delivering media to the home?

I suspect their dream includes WMC, but not exclusively WMC.  It's just too good to put down, but it's also not good enough to be everything to everyone.   It will likely evolve into new forms and enter markets that we're not entirely comfortable with.   Yet, a rapid evolution into a defined market is crucial for the sustainability of WMC as a (pseudo)product.  

And while we can expect WMC to evolve to keep it relevant, it's doubtful that Microsoft will be able to maximize WMC's potential.  I say this because I see huge potential for this platform.  I see its potential being no less than the iPhone of home entertainment.   But there are several crucial pieces missing that are required for home domination, and I'm not yet convinced Microsoft as an organization has the skills, philosophy and culture to fill in these gaps.

Future installments of Jon's Digital Dreams will outline some of the pieces that are missing that get in the way of realizing "the dream," in addition to providing commentary and analysis on important developments in the world of WMC. 

To re-iterate my goals from the initial post on The Green Button, my intent is to engage the WMC community in great discussions and debates around this fantastic -- and fantastically frustrating -- product.   I look forward to it!

Comments

 

hamiltonguy said:

This question of the direction MS is taking Media center and the controversy surrounding TV on the PC come back to a fundamental problem.  Media Center is built in to Windows.  It shouldn't be.  How do the been counters at MS quantify Media Center sales, they can't.  How does MS know which direction to take Media Center - PC, TV, online.  telemetry data is not enough.  Media Center should be a seperate product, with a seperate revenue stream.  The green button is great for communicating to the hardcore fans, but I am not sure it can provide justification to move the product in a certain direction.  Real revenue can.

August 1, 2009 3:18 PM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Hamilton Guy,

I wholeheartedly agree.  I was saving this topic for a future post!  But, in essence, WMC has no business being on par with Solitaire -- an app bundled with an OS.

The OS already has Windows Media Player.  WMC on top of that is just an organizational decision justifying a market bundling.  The price of convenience is evident.

August 1, 2009 5:39 PM
 

douglasvb said:

I shelved Media Center about a year ago, yet I install it on a daily basis. I check back here occasionally to find out what might be coming in Windows 7. I can’t say I’m happier without Media Center, but more… “At peace”.

I now use DirecTV HR22 DVR’s, and the clunky user interface, the miserable lag between pages, and the fact that I have to schedule everything twice, (for each TV location), is not ideal, but I get affordable, reliable, HD Recordings, and really that’s all I need. As I’m sure some of you can relate, I used to come home from work, pull up “thegreenbutton”, and obsess over what problems I could work on for the night. I don’t know how much more I can tell Microsoft that I haven’t told them already, but I work with, and see people on a daily basis who are using Media Center, and they all want the same thing. A seamless extender experience, DVD/Blu-Ray Movie Collection Management, and MORE HDTV Options. I always know the questions that come with my tutorials at the end of a project, and on the last house I did, I thought I would get away without the netflix and movie collection questions… But nope, it was on the list of things to ask: “why isn’t the netflix working in the theater room?”, and “How do I copy DVD’s to the media center?” What the home owner didn’t realize, is that the media center PC is on the upstairs TV, (So that mom can keep an eye on the kids at the computer), Netflix is not accessible from the theater room (Xbox 360) location. Now… do I even go there with Xbox live gold… and leaving mce environment??? Ugh. For Question #2, I asked him “how did you know you could copy movies to the media center?” He said the builder had told him he could store hundreds of DVD’s on the PC. Again… where do you think he wants to watch his ripped movies…? Ugh. What the builder did not realize is that the last home I had done for him, the media center was in the theater room.  So now the 3 hour training that every installer dreads.. anydvd, mymovies, transcode360, extender limitations… the works.

I have worked on some of the finest homes the Michigan lake shore has to offer. Last year at CES a Microsoft employee had the audacity to ask me “I thought you said you were a system integrator?” because I was not using home automation software within media center. He would not even listen as I tried to explain that a platform that only supports two input methods for HDTV and can’t do soft sled or extenders correctly is no platform at all for most people.

August 1, 2009 10:28 PM
 

HT Slider said:

It would be nice to understand what has and is going on with Media Center as far as upper management at Microsoft is concerned.  My feeling is Media Center has always been stifled in many ways - almost as if upper management wants it to fail.

There are far too many critical (for sales) features that have always been missing from Media Center.  Instead Microsoft keeps focusing on producing an incredibly impressive GUI combined with a bunch of really cool, but less than useful features.

Without extenders being able to extend all content (on-line DVDs included), Media Center PCs being able to access TV from networked Media Center PCs with tuners in them, and the most fundamental flexible access to HD content (such as a very basic video capture model supporting such things as the Hauppauge HD-PVR), standard network tuners (consumers don't want to move their cable and satellite feeds) I don't think Media Center has a reasonable chance in the high volume HD-PVR market.  Noting that Media Center is considerably more expensive than a typical HD-PVR STB and as such it needs the above "value added" in order to justify the cost.

To make matters FAR worse, Microsoft has left Media Center for literally years with dysfunctional CableCard support (lack of switched video support).  With CableCard being the only high channel count HD source available this completely seals the deal and guarantees failure.

In summary, the only thing that has dragged Media Center along is how it has been funded by an entire OS that it ships with.  With the product Media Center is I would normally say tying it with the OS would be a bad thing - but considering the very poor upper management decisions, this is probably the only reason we still have Media Center here today.

I keep wondering if Microsoft smarted up, fixed CableCard, added additional HD sources, and then added the necessary value added features to make it compete with the rest of the HD-PVR STB market if it would still take off?  I'm absolutely certain if Microsoft did the right thing from the start it would have, but is it too late?  Is there still a market for a higher end, networked HD-PVR named "Media Center"?

August 1, 2009 11:04 PM
 

Philip Colmer said:

I recently bought a computer specifically engineered as an HTPC - it sits in my living room and was expected to run WMC exclusively.

Out of the box, I've had problems. It won't even play DVDs because of a breakdown somewhere between the PC, HDMI and my Denon amp!

If I'm ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, I have to go back to the main Windows environment in order to interact with AnyDVD. If I want to make sure the meta data is correct for Media Browser, I have to go back to the main Windows environment.

Yes, I could remote desktop, and when I get Windows 7, I'll get the version that has that and not the Home version. But that *still* drops the user back into the Windows environment. You don't have this level of mucking around with a traditional PVR - you just turn it on and use it.

Oh, and don't even get me started on having to use WMP to build play lists just so that I can sync stuff to my Archos. Why aren't I presented with a list of recordings or music so that I can tick them for syncing over?

Now you can argue that WMC isn't just a traditional PVR and indeed that is largely the reason why we use it. But just like Windows Mobile, Microsoft have provided something that is more flexible that the competition - but at the cost that only people who are prepared to invest serious amounts of time are, in turn, prepared to put up with the quirks.

I do not regret my decision to spend a LOT of money putting a fanless PC into our living room. Win7 RTM will go onto it as soon as I can get it, and I know that will fix a lot of my problems.

Ultimately, though, WMC needs to have more tender loving care from Microsoft. Where is the User Guide? What would the public think if their cable company delivered a PVR with NO instructions whatsoever. Yes, you can figure SOME of the WMC functionality out, but there is quite a lot of hidden stuff like adding a recording based just on a search term.

August 2, 2009 2:56 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Doug,

I feel your pain!  And you bring up a very interesting point (a point for a future post, I'm sure!) regarding the target market(s) for WMC.   Is it a platform for pro installations?  Well, it certainly is packaged that way (i.e., no sealed-box, STB solution), but it's not spec'd out that way.  

Like you said, there are work-arounds for a lot of problems, but the very fact that you have shelved WMC while you still install it for a living is so telling... someone at MSFT should be very sad to read that story.

And if they're not, then they don't deserve the fan base that they have.

August 2, 2009 7:34 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

HT Slider,

Great points; and the most salient point to me is the umbilical cord between WMC and the OS.   In an intentionally-simplistic model, Microsoft sees Media Center like Solitaire -- a bundled app to make an OS more compelling.

You're exactly right -- without a SKU with P/L, there really are not the right market constraints and drivers to push the right kind of innovation.  At some point in the process, having a long leash is fantastic... and is likely why WMC is one of the precious few, insanely-elegant GUIs MSFT ever developed.    But there comes a time when constraints, deadlines and competitiveness helps a product develop focus.

Unfortunately, I've read that the opposite is happening -- that WMC updates are going to be tied to Windows updates moving forward.  I hope the info I read was wrong, or that I read it wrong.  

August 2, 2009 7:38 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Philip,

You're completely right -- MSFT leaves too much onus on the user to figure things out.  There seems to be a presumptive, engineer-driving culture at MSFT that inhibits its success when developing consumer-based solutions.

It's so clear with WMC... and it's quite similar to WinMo (I have both).   I'm quite savvy, so I'm OK peeking under the covers, doing lots of research, and figuring things out.  That's my thing.  That's why I'm a great customer for MSFT.  But I also know that I'm not normal, and that a normal person wants no part of this "fun."  That's an Apple consumer or prospect.  

BTW, there are definitely ways to rip DVDs without leaving WMC!   I do it all the time.   In fact, I do everything I possibly can to never, ever leave the WMC full-screen experience.  I honestly do not want a "PC in my family room" even though, technically, that's what I have.  What I want is a media center management system that looks and feels like a sealed-box solution that I bought at Best Buy.

So, to have the best of both worlds, I've spent a lot of time ensuring that every/any activity that I regularly partake in fulfills my fantasy that WMC is my uber-STB, with no keyboard, mouse or any "PC stuff" in my family room.

Happy to discuss how I rip DVDs without leaving WMC if that's really the issue at hand (hint: I use MyMovies and AnyDVD)

August 2, 2009 7:45 AM
 

thezigpc said:

JonDeutsch, its sad that we have to 'fantasize' about the STB Media Center.

This post hits things dead-on, and each day that goes by I question if all the hoops and hurdles we go through (HDPVRs, Firewire Channel Changing, Cost of renting STBs) if its even worth it anymore.  I cant tuck all my STBs, HDVPRs, DVD changers into a central location & still have a fully featured media center machine that plays blu-ray and has access to dvd menus  in the living room simply because I cant access tuners 'remotely'.

August 2, 2009 9:44 AM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

Fantastic first post Jon!

I think zigpc said it best, its sad that we have to 'fantasize' about the Media Center.

I think one of the things people don't understand about my postings is that I finished fantasizing and making suggestions about how Media Center should work long ago.  Truth is, Microsoft knows exactly what people here at TGB want.  The problem is they are clearly not finding a market for it.

I look at myself as a realist, and while I agree with everything that things should "just work", and all products should connect, and Microsoft should target the whole home, it is all the opposite of what I actually see happening.

Here is the unfortunate truth, after Windows 7 gets released next month we will have another 2-4 years before the next Media Center release.  It doesn't really matter if Microsoft nails Media Center in Windows 8 as exactly what we want, fact is the game will be over by then.  By this point a $10/month leased STB will do 90% of what Media Center offers and the majority of the market will be happy with that.  Media Center will still fail to offer features that the TGB market has demanded, slowly shrinking the market.

Microsoft had their chance to win the living room, but they failed and I think they realize that.  Instead of scraping their investment, they are going to try and reinvent it.  I don't want that to happen, and I have no interest in using Media Center as a desktop application.  At this point though, suggestions on how things should work aren't going to go very far.

So, is TV on the PC a marketing ploy until they figure out the best way to attack the PC on the TV market?  Maybe.  Does it matter in the long run?  My opinion is no.

August 2, 2009 10:06 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

zigpc,

This is why I called WMC fantastic and fantastically frustrating.   It's so rare that a product delivers so much that it begs to do the rest, yet its parents ground it because it doesn't share their values.   A family tragedy!

Yet, there still may be hope.  I'll be pointing out some things I see happening and how that they might be hints to a less devastating future than many might be projecting.

Then again, beware: I'm an optimist.  I believe a good idea combined with good leadership can make a real difference.

August 2, 2009 3:55 PM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the kind words!  

I totally feel your "fed-upness" in your posts, as you document the evolution of this beast, and I know it's only because it's painful to watch something with so much potential let itself -- and its fans -- down.  

It's almost like being a fan of a musician and watching him/her fall apart due to a drug addiction or some psychological disorder.  A real, real bummer.

That said, WMC is not a single personality (like a musician is), which is why I think there might be a bit more hope than I would think there would be if there were only one person in charge who didn't agree with us.  In other words, I think WMC is more like a band that's on the ropes.  But bands sometimes get back together and do amazing things, right?

I see some things in WMC's current and future state that indicate to me that all hope is not (yet) lost.  I look forward to posting these thoughts for the community to consider, poke holes in, chew on, and summarily dismiss. :)

Jon

August 2, 2009 4:00 PM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

The only problem I see with Media Center not being a "single personality" (eg. desktop application), is that Microsoft depends on OEMs to provide the side of the experience we are looking for.  If OEMs fail to believe Microsoft is going somewhere with the platform, they are going to leave and not bother looking back.

August 3, 2009 5:32 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Hey Chris,

Of course, you're correct on the OEM front.  And, yeah, the OEM problem is kind of unique here because while it might work well for PC packaging and sales, it is certainly not the preferred method for Media Center packaging.  

I see two evolutions that might address this:

1. Xbox'ing WMC, where Microsoft takes control of hardware of the ecosystem.   Could this be why 3rd party extenders are disappearing, yet Xbox continues to be the a growing concern in home media management?

2. Microsoft taking a leadership position to help define the high-end/installer market by pushing an HTPC spec, powered by Windows Media Center.  

Of course, we should step back and discuss the markets that are out there, and the markets that Microsoft could competitively serve with the existing technology.

August 3, 2009 6:37 AM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

1.  Very doubtful, at least as it relates to Media Center.  There is no money in a hardware Media Center Extender for Microsoft.  Frankly, there is no money at all in Media Center for Microsoft.  Now, the Xbox is a cash cow.  Huge divided from gaming/3rd party licensing, 20 million Xbox Live subs, big media deals with Netflix, Twitter, etc.  Microsoft stands to gain nothing by pushing the Xbox as a hardware Extender.  They stand to gain everything pushing the NXE/Dashboard with their media partners.

2.  This might still happen, but Media Center's in-roads into the market are coming to slow.  The market already has issues with Microsoft and using a PC in these installs.  Support is a huge issue here.  Of course, if they focus on the custom market you can bet most of those features/products will stay at the high end and not make it into a retail product..  As soon as a customer can go buy the product at Best Buy the integrator loses his margin and most of his interest as all.

August 3, 2009 6:47 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

re: 1.  Of course, there's no money in Media Center, but as you say, there's money in Xbox.  And if WMC can be used as an effective wedge to get people to buy more Xbox's (as extenders), then you have more potential Live customers and more potential gamers in the world.   I know this # is going to be marginal, but since they've already invested in WMC, why not make it a loss leader for continuing to build out the Xbox home domination strategy?

re; 2.  Yes, this is why I stated in my post that we might not be all that comfy with the direction of WMC.  If they successfully target it for the installer market, then everything will be priced well outside our comfort zone.    

What's great (and unsustainable) about WMC now is that it's installer-level media center quality/elegance without the installer/custom home market price tag.  

What's not great about WMC is that the custom installers, to your point, have a problem with MSFT (as they should) in terms of support, packaging and, now, features.

In a bind, they are.  But they're not dumb.  They have plans on the drawing board, I'm sure.  

August 3, 2009 7:10 AM
 

Tracer said:

The biggest problem I see with Media Center is lack of true HD support.  Sure there is the Cable Card Tuner but, the whole OEM only complete solution was destin for failure.  It's just a tuner that accepts a cable card.  You don't have to have a specially approved Tivo bundled with a TV purchase.  Why make the ATI Cable Card Tuner solution so complicated.

Sure there are work arounds for HD but, the average user doesn't do work arounds.  Firewire support should be fully functional.  The ATI tuner should be treated like any other tuner.   Just plug and play HD solutions.

August 3, 2009 9:03 AM
 

thezigpc said:

I said it before, Microsoft needs to push Media Center into its "Live" ecosystem.. Call it Windows "Live" Media Center.  It would be released as a separate product that runs on top of windows much like all their other Live offerings and would be updated a lot more frequently then a 2-year cycle.

They can leverage value-added features and its importance as a cash cow by requiring their live/zune marketplace subscription for bonus content.

August 3, 2009 10:18 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Tracer,

Yeah, you're right.  The DRM problems with the CableCard tuners really do create a serious barrier-to-entry.  To be fair, MSFT complained loudly that they were really hamstrung by CableLabs back in 2006 when this was all being negotiated, and they talked about it being a 'starting point' where they hoped for things to loosen up over time.

I agree, though, for a consumer, there's really no way to understand all the nuances of CC-ready Vista boxes other than doing a bunch of research.  Make you wonder how many people bought or own a PC, hoping to make it a DVR, and then realize when it's too late that they can't have digital cable?

What a let down!  But again, this is a mixture of CableLabs and Microsoft negotiation efforts.  One has to wonder how things might be different today if any of us could transform a PC (legally) into a CC-compliant DVR?

August 3, 2009 11:22 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

zigpc,

You're touching on one of the more strategic areas of WMC -- its financial (and therefore technical) ecosystem.   It's a critical component to its future, and one has to wonder what's coming with the Xbox/Zune/WMC ecosystem in the future...  I love the idea of premium content for a subscription fee.  

There are other monetizing options for WMC as well -- which I plan to blog about in the future.

August 3, 2009 11:25 AM
 

Gariputo said:

I just don't understand "TV on your PC" that was a novelty years ago, but does Microsoft really see a large number of people who want to go through the hassle of CableCard just so they can sit desk and watch or have it playing in a window while they work?.

Wouldn't having a media marketplace (Zune) for Media Centre (extender support included) that sells movies music and add-ons be a way to make money? The platform could allow 2 foot buying on the PC and 10 foot from Xbox or an Extender as well as from the Zune itself, and the content would be playable on all the devices.

Just another fantasy I guess but it makes more sense to me than TV on the PC.

August 3, 2009 6:17 PM
 

Gariputo said:

Great first post by the way!

August 3, 2009 6:22 PM
 

FSUGrad1999 said:

JonDeutsch,

Fantastic first post my friend!!  I've seen many of these discussions take place in various scattered threads across TGB, but you have some of the heavy hitters responding here, and all of this information is in a clear, concise format for all of the world (and M$) to see...  I know a lot of this stuff has been discussed over and over again, but it’s great to see and hear so many users expressing their irritations so clearly...  Your band analogy is a great one... (I'm a musician, and a music fan, and that one really made me smile)... I also totally agree with you that in order for most people to get TV (especially HD) working with WMC, they practically have to be IT Pro's for a living (which I am), or at the very minimum love to "tinker" with gadgets and technology, and dare I say...  enjoy FIXING things that break too much, or don't do exactly what you'd like for them to do!  So you have to hack it into submission.

douglasvb,

That was one of the saddest, but most hard hitting posts I've seen in a while.  Honestly, if I were on the media center team, I'd be getting your name and number and bringing you on as a consultant..  You're in the trenches trying to implement a product for your customers.... this is one of the ways you make a living... and you don't use said product at home yourself?  You use the off the shelf crappy equipment that your provider lets you rent...  How telling is that people?  All I can say is...  WOW

Chris, your honesty and realism is always appreciated...  You understand this better than most people since you've been around it for the longest...  I personally think you're more of a pessimist...  but so am I... and most everything you say unfortunately makes sense....

To be honest with you guys, I love my media center...  It does most everything I want it to do...  I bought an OEM PC with two internal DCTs....  and I have two Xbox 360's on my two LCDs.  Life is good, well, except for when I get 3 RROD's (this has happened 3x now) or when I get "restricted content" and have to reboot to watch any recorded or liveTV with my DCT's.  But these are small annoyances...  Overall, I'm very happy with my decision to go with WMC, and LOVE the fact that I have so much stuff recorded, I can't get to it all... and probably won't...   I also love archiving all the concerts (especially the HD ones) this was one of my main reasons for going with WMC, so I could have as much storage as I wanted, and keep these recordings forever to watch whenever...  It is alarming when I stop to think that I may not be able to ever play many of my recordings again if I lost my motherboard in my VMC PC....  There are a lot of holes in this model...  but for "right now" I'm loving it...  Of course, I wish I could get S3 working so I could extend the life of my MB...   I'm very concerned about losing the terabytes of recordings I've accumulated with WMC.

Sorry, I went on a tangent there, but just wanted to say LOVE this thread!!

August 4, 2009 8:51 AM
 

DFox said:

The people on this thread have touched on these topics before, but I agree this first post by you Jon hones in on the issue.

First, I am a rabid Media Center fan along with my friends and family thanks to my imposition. I think Media Center has been one of Microsoft’s killer applications for the home user and I hope it ends up at the core of all media management. However, as Chris has intimated, realistically the Xbox 360 will probably be just that. When I read through the comments about the native Netflix plugin not supported on extenders it made me consider the other viewpoint. Common complaints were that they didn’t want to have to drop out of the Media Center experience to launch the dashboard Netflix, and they don’t want to have to pay an additional gold membership to have access to the same content. But the majority of the Xbox customers bought it for all of the features it provides other than Media Center. Those people most likely already have gold subscriptions, play games, watch Netflix, and stream their music (or directly connected iPods), and display their pictures directly through the dashboard. So consider their perspective: “Why do I have to leave the Xbox experience just to access the Media Center content?”

In my opinion, cable and satellite distribution is legacy as all content will eventually move to the Internet. So in addition to Last.fm, Twitter, and Facebook, they add a Hulu plug-in and a pretty UI for browsing music and photos the gap really narrows between it and Media Center. (Throw in a CableCard tuner and an external hard drive you can even take on the legacy content and bypass the Media Center PC altogether.) Services are the way to go as everything moves to the cloud, and the Xbox is positioned better in the marketplace to capture this. Currently customers are paying a measly $4 per month for all of these features, plus $9 for Netflix. Add first run network TV HD content over IP, charge an additional few bucks. Add some other services, charge a few more bucks. My cable bill today is $100 per month. At the current $13 for the Xbox and movie services, they have a lot of room to be competitive with the providers and DVRs, and I can drop my cable service and Media Center PC all together. There has been other discussions by Ben about this moving to Home Server. I am not denying that this is probably a good move in the short and medium term given the “legacy” content and home networks. But I think a long term strategy is for the providers to have all of the content in the cloud and stream it on demand to your Xbox, Zune, and PC. Sure, there will always be users that want to own the content and media and keep it locally. But I suspect that if the subscription model is positioned right most people will be happy to pay a nominal flat fee for music, TV, and movies and have access to everything, anywhere, anytime. It isn’t fair for me to pay $100 per month and then only have access to the x number of TBs that I can store on my home network. I want access to everything I am paying for, and have already paid for, anytime.

Obviously this strategy will alienate the Media Center community. But it doesn’t make sense to keep developing multiple platforms (including Media Room) that will eventually perform the same function of streaming content from the Internet and displaying it in a pretty interface. Regarding media, they need to compete with DVRs and TVs that have built-in Internet and other network services, and I think the win for Microsoft in this space is to get everyone to buy an Xbox and subscribe to the Xbox-related services.

And then the next generation of Xbox could just be the Xbox framework and software built in to TVs and other devices, kind of like how we all hoped Extenders would be. Then people can go to Best Buy and purchase a TV that has a little Xbox logo on it and comes with three free months of subscription.

August 4, 2009 11:05 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

Dfox,

I think you've succinctly and effectively outlined one evolutionary stream of home media management... and it's likely home on the XBox STB (yeah, in this context, I see it as an STB, not a game machine).   The problem I have with the Xbox experience is that it's still designed primarily as a game machine, and its GUI is still very game-y.  This is not a stopper (and it's clearly evolving at a rapid pace), but media management isn't just for the gamer.  

Which is why I foresee a more involved evolution that includes WMC, even with the Xbox dominance.   Hope to blog about more details around this in a future post...

FSUGrad -- tweakers and fiddlers are Microsoft's core -- always have been.  Their huge IT focus centers around the tech-literate and tech-professional.  Their consumer focus has, in my view, always been hamstrung by this tech-centric echo chamber they live within.  Xbox team broke from the mold very effectively, but what's really impressive to me is how far the Media Center team was able to go within the Operating System ecosystem.  Even if it's not far enough...

August 4, 2009 11:59 AM
 

FSUGrad1999 said:

Dfox,

You're completely right...  I'm sure we'll all get to the point where we'll have a broadband connection fast enough to support streaming full 1080p with no compression from a variety of sources...  I envision all these broadcast, cable, and sat TV channels we have now having a digital streaming counterpart, or maybe an on demand counterpart...  you'll pay for everything a la carte (which would really save us all a TON of money)....  and then as time passes, the TV channels themselves will eventually disappear....

I think Microsoft knows this, and isn't sinking a lot of time and effort into this older distribution method because of that....   Like Chris and you, and many people here...  I see them going to either a WMC STB or Xbox STB...  I know they make a TON of money for their overpriced movie and TV XBL rentals, and they're only going to continue to push the XBL rental model further as their partnerships strengthen.

You'd think they'd be more focused on Hulu and other online sites inside of WMC, but I have a feeling a lot of that is coming... and if it isn't coming, then that means they're going to flat out abandon MC...  Because they know that cloud entertainment is the way everything will eventually go....  This idea of renting and streaming all your entertainment is catching on very quickly.... and mass adoption is only a few years away.

Maybe they've decided to cut their losses and focus on this new method, so they don't miss the bus twice in a row...

Personally, I have to tip my hat to them on Media Center...  for something that doesn't make them any money (or very little) it’s fantastic.  And considering how many different ways you can get media into it (especially when you start talking all the different countries, and how many of them do this differently) is quite a feat..  While it doesn't do everything we want it to, its still quite an incredible product considering it doesn't make them hardly any money.

JonDeutch,

You're right...  That has always been M$'s core...  But they need to react more quickly if they're going to survive.....

Its not just media that's going to the cloud quickly...  Data and applications are as well..  Google and other innovative companies are making Microsoft look like a beached dying whale.  Combine that with a lot of open source alternatives... and a younger generation that is slowly buying into the M$=dork and linux is the GNU generation, and you have a bad situation for the M$ machine.

Even many of Microsoft's newest business products seem to be just the old stuff with a new face (which just slows it down)...  but same super high price tag.

I'm a SQL DBA, and all our app devs are java guys...  I get to hear M$ jokes ALL DAY long...  trust me...  its not fun to watch something you committed to career wise slowly falling apart in your face...  I think that's why Douglasvb's post hit such a chord with me....

Sorry for going off topic a little :)

August 4, 2009 1:03 PM
 

FSUGrad1999 said:

JonDeutsch,

I forgot to say....  you have a way with words my friend!  I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head wit hthem being in their own little techie universe...  and kinda disconnected from real consumers that they are after...  They need to take some notes from Apple.

You're also absolutely correct, the Xbox 360 (and XBL) has been a tremendous success...  They should be taking notes from that team as well.

August 4, 2009 1:06 PM
 

DFox said:

Jon - I completely agree about the Xbox 360 NXE interface (I can never find my active downloads). And FSUGrad1999, I agree there is a lot to learn from the success of the Xbox and its services. Maybe we should be hedging on Microsoft’s vision and start lobbying for “Media Center on the Xbox,” which, instead of an extender, the next version of the dashboard is the Media Center interface. Slap on a Games and Contacts/Friends tile, and eventually ditch the Recorded TV and instead just have On Now and On Sometime In The Past. Give the user an interface to select/deselect tiles and choose a default start tile, and the option for having your avatar displayed and messaging updates (Twitter, Facebook, email, IM) pop-up in the corner.

I don’t mean to turn this post into sounding like an Xbox fanboy (even though I am a Media Center fanboy). But I think ultimately what I am most of a fan of with Media Center is the interface. Essentially everything else is content, and eventually that will all be coming from the cloud. Of Microsoft’s offerings, the Xbox is best positioned for both penetration into home entertainment as well as garnering subscriptions for that entertainment and media content.

Now the marketing - which do you think is more understandable to the generic Best Buy customer: Media Center on the Xbox, or Xbox Live services on the PC? As far as brand awareness goes, I think people understand that the Xbox is for entertainment, and most probably have no clue their PC is already running the best piece of media software in the industry. In my opinion, Microsoft needs to continue to push the general consumer into understanding that the Xbox is not only for games. I think that battle is easier and cheaper than getting them to embrace the Media Center PC/Extender/Home Server ecosystem.

August 5, 2009 6:51 AM
 

Gariputo said:

DFox,

I like your idea of Media Centre replacing the dash UI.

I agree about customers not knowing they have MC to begin with too, maybe having the xbox detect a media centre on the network with a message ( as well as the PC detecting the xbox) would help. It's a shame so many have no idea they've had the parts of the MC ecosystem all along.

August 5, 2009 9:07 AM
 

FSUGrad1999 said:

Gariputo,

Vista does do this now..  when it detects an extender (including the xbox 360) it has a bubble pop up in the bottom right asking if you want to add that extender...  I'm not sure if that reminder happens no matter what, or if you have to have already used MC at some point previously...  But there is something like that already...

You're right though, its not on the Xbox side, at least not in a reminder form.

August 5, 2009 9:11 AM
 

Gariputo said:

FSUGrad1999,

That's right I forgot it does that, I think it comes up before you've run MC too now that I think of it. I guess it doesn't help much, although it couldn't hurt to have it on both sides.

August 5, 2009 10:11 AM
 

JonDeutsch said:

After this amazing discussion, my biggest task is to figure out which conversation thread to explore for the next post!  So many thoughts, so little time...

August 5, 2009 10:45 AM
 

FSUGrad1999 said:

JonDeutsch,

Here's some more food for thought...  I have a Canadian friend on XBL I play online with from time to time...  We were talking about setting up a game to "boost our ranks" in our game, by exploiting a glitch...  this required keeping our xboxes on and connected to each others inside the game for hours as we racked up the points....  I did tell him that I could do that overnight, but I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of the day....

Why he asked?  Because I watch all my TV through my Xbox....

Woah!  Now he's interested... how do you do that?  Can I do that?

Sure, with media center... do you have a Vista or XP machine with media center on it?

Yes, he says...  I do...  we use it to look at pictures sometimes on my laptop in our office.  

Cool!  Well you're half way there my friend...  so all you have to do is go buy a tuner and... wait.... You're in canada?  Dude, I don't know, but I see a lot of Canadians complaining on this website, here you need to go check it out... its called TGB, blah blah...

He proceeds to tell me that yes, he's familiar with media center, and uses it for looking at pictures when they have friends over so they can look at them on his 50something inch plasma in the living room....

I explain that it can do much more than that, and start getting into my setup....  He then starts talking about how he's tried to use it for playing music but PREFERS the xbox dashboard for music streaming from his PC.  I tell him, I'm the same way... I pretty much only use WMC for video... and maybe occasionally showing people pictures... but I always use the Xbox Dash for music.

We both agreed that while the dash interface was not as pretty, and seemed more clunky on the surface, it was much faster/responsive, and just did a better job with music.....

That's one thing that they should improve in media center if you asked me, is the music playback...

If this thing is supposed to be the center of all my media, why am I exiting out of it to play music on my XB dashboard???

Come to think of it, why can't you rewind and fast forward music on either??  that really really bugs me.

Sorry, this was another random thought I thought I'd share that doesn't apply to your thread directly...

One thing I wish I could have done was give my XBL friend more info, but since he's a Canadian, I didn't want to make too many promises for him in regards to TV with media center...

August 5, 2009 1:01 PM
 

Gariputo said:

It's a good thing you didn't make any promises, it ain't pretty up here (MC can't get HD without hacks for example)

August 5, 2009 2:58 PM
 

JonDeutsch said:

FSUGrad,

No apologies for going "off topic" needed.  It's all great stuff.  Great fodder, and great stories for us to experience and empathize with.

We're the disciples of one of Microsoft's greatest accomplishments.  It's just that in today's world, you need more than a great product.  You need great marketing to back it up.   Microsoft just doesn't have that marketing muscle in its toolkit to get consumers aware/interested/excited by such things.

And, trust me, this is a marketing problem... not a technology problem.  Yeah, there are technology limitations, but a more marketing-driven organization would be setting priorities based on what they felt they needed to sell and grow the product.

Oh, that's right, there's no sales of Windows Media Center.  It's "free."  

Well, there goes the need for marketing, eh?

And therein lies a serious problem... WMC is a pseudoproduct.

August 5, 2009 3:57 PM
 

Tony_Park said:

Its a shame that there aren't more users, more users would mean more companies developing MC products, and therefore these gaps that we find to be very limiting, could and probably would be overcome by these innovative companies.

Seems to be a chicken and egg situation...

August 5, 2009 4:14 PM
 

DFox said:

FSUGrad1999,

Since Jon has given us the go-ahead for tangents, I wanted to add to your comment referencing Java developers and try to draw a parallel with Media Center. I think their mindset is a symptom of a larger comprehension problem with Microsoft solutions. Some developers are comparing for example simply what language can render HTML and pull data from a database better. I think the real value of a product like SQL is how easily it integrates into an IIS/SQL/.NET/Silverlight ecosystem. I know I am starting to sound like a Microsoft evangelist, but I think the maturity of these products and platforms and how seamlessly they work together lend themselves to simplified development, implementation, and support. In my opinion, the biggest system problems within a corporate Windows infrastructure are either when components get too heterogeneous or when the design is done by a bunch of right-clickers.

So I see Java running on IIS and connecting to SQL similar to iTunes running on Windows Home Premium and playing music. Most general technology consumers are comparing the like-for-like features of each product such as iTunes to Media Player. iTunes plays MP3 music on Windows, and Java connects to SQL. So does Media Player and C#, respectively. Who cares. But now layer Media Center on top of that content, extend it through the Xbox into your living room, and stream it to your “Pink” Phone over Live Mesh-like services (someday), then that iPod dock next to your TV will start looking a bit paltry. But that is one of the problems with Media Center that we all keep highlighting- the way to get the true value out of this product is to make customers aware of its existence and features, and have them want to integrate it into the complete Windows media ecosystem. After that make it easy enough for the right-clickers to understand and configure.

(For the record, I have no problem with iPhone users connecting their devices to their Macs, synchronizing with their iTunes library, and streaming content to their Apple TVs; I’m all for homogenous solutions.)

August 5, 2009 10:31 PM


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